BONUS EPISODE: Building open networks for others to own across the country

On this episode of Connected Nation, we've got some bonus coverage from the Broadband Communities Summit. We talk with Drew Pappas from Bonfire Infrastructure Group on how they help communities, coops, Tribes, and others build open networks across the country.

Recommended links:
Bonfire Website

Guest's LinkedIn - Drew Pappas

Transcript

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Jessica Denson (00:07):

On this episode of Connect Nation, we continue our coverage from the Broadband Community Summit. We talk with one company that's helping communities, co-ops, native Nations, and others build open networks across the country. I'm Jessica Denson, this is Connected Nation.

(00:26):

I am out just outside the exhibit hall and meetings, uh, rooms for the Broadband Community Summit taking place in Houston, Texas, June 24th and 25th. And I was talking to one of my colleagues, Frank Martines, and he suggested I speak with Drew Pappas with Bonfire. Welcome. Drew.

Drew Pappas (00:45):

Thank you so much for having me. It's great to meet you.

Jessica Denson (00:46):

Yeah. Uh, tell me a little bit about Bonfire and what you do for them.

Drew Pappas (00:49):

Yeah, absolutely. So Bonfire is based in Denver, Colorado. Uh, and we, I mean, we design and build and operate fiber networks, uh, specifically fiber to the X, whether that's to the home, business, farm, uh, tower, any of that kind of stuff. Uh, and one of the unique, unique things we do on the, on the operation side is we operate open access networks.

(01:08):

 So uhhuh kind of work as the, as the, the on on the operations layer to help maintain, commercialize the asset for third party owned infrastructure. So whether that's a tribe, a city, a county, a co-op, uh, and then we'll bring on multiple ISPs on that network to provide service.

Jessica Denson (01:23):

So, and do you work just in Colorado, or No. You have a bigger footprint than

Drew Pappas (01:26):

That? Yeah. Nationwide. Yeah. We're doing, we're doing work projects in Northern California. We're doing out in New Jersey, so we're kind of across,

Jessica Denson (01:31):

So all over the place. Yeah. Um, one of the reasons Frank wanted to talk, wanted me to talk to you is because he, he is, he is native and he's very excited about what you're doing with the Southern Youth Tribe in Colorado.

Drew Pappas (01:42):

Yeah.

Jessica Denson (01:43):

Talk about that and, and why that's such an important project.

Drew Pappas (01:46):

No, I mean, I think, I mean, personally for me, my, our favorite customers that we have at Bonfire, we've been working with the tribe, uh, since late 2020 mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, and it started off with a, a $50,000 kind of engagement of let's figure out what's possible, right? So we kind of looked, they have a very large footprint from a reservation. They're about a thousand square miles and a

Jessica Denson (02:03):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Drew Pappas (02:04):

And, you know, and only about four or four or 5,000 actual locations on the reservation. So very spread out, very rural. Started off as trying to kind of figure out maybe what a wireless approach would be, and then some of the, the money was coming out through the state of Colorado. The, the tribal connectivity broadband round one was starting to kind of come out mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it was like, well, hey guys, we can, I think we can do something much larger here. And so I got the opportunity now, I think we're up to, it's, it's a 100% fully grant funded. We're at just over $77 million in total grant funding through state and federal programs have built out 275 plus miles a middle mile. And I've also started to build out all the district different distribution stuff and are actively serving customers now on the reservation. So I, I wanna make sure I, I think this is correct, but I believe it's the first open access tribally owned network in the country, which is, we're super honored and proud to be a part of. So,

Jessica Denson (02:52):

And what do you mean mean by open access? That anybody can come in?

Drew Pappas (02:55):

Yeah. So, and we, not anybody, I wish I said I want to, you know, we wanna make sure that we're, uh, working with and bringing on ISPs that are, uh, able to provide the service that is gonna be required, you know mm-hmm <affirmative>. And not just some kind of fly by night group, but, yeah. Well, it is a, it is an open, they just need to meet us at kind of the head end perspective, and then they get an opportunity to get in front of a bunch of different customers without having to put in a large amount of capital to go build that out. Like you're more traditional vertically integrated ISPs, uhhuh,

Jessica Denson (03:20):

<affirmative>,

Drew Pappas (03:20):

Uh, and then I think really, I mean, the, the main point of it is giving our, the tribal members on the reservation, the, the actual choice to pick between, whether it's I-S-P-A-I-S-P-B, what better suits their need? Is it price driven? Is it maybe something on home security and in-house wifi and streaming stuff that they want to focus on. So it really gives them the opportunity not to create just a, another monopoly from, you know, an ISP perspective and give a choice. So,

Jessica Denson (03:44):

And it's owned by the tribe, though.

Drew Pappas (03:46):

Absolutely.

Jessica Denson (03:46):

Absolutely. So how does that work? You, you, you act on behalf of the tribe, or? Yeah, or I mean,

Drew Pappas (03:51):

Really, I mean, it kind of boils down to like being an owner's rep, really. I mean, that's kind of the, and we're wanting to make sure, so instead of the tribe needing to maybe stand up, you know, the whole, whether it's the, the network engineering team and the, the GMs and the different field technicians and the different salespeople mm-hmm <affirmative>. Being able to help where we can kind of operate, maintain, commercialized, grow that network for them. And then there every month, you know, from a rev share perspective, getting that money as the infrastructure owner based on the subscribers. Uh, and then the ISPs are making there a little bit, and we're making, you know, making a little bit from it. So it's, I it's, we're really liking it from the sense that it's giving them an opportunity to own this an asset for the next 50 plus years. I think that's the beauty specifically with any of the tribes that we work with. Like we believe all tribes should be owning their infrastructure and kind of owning their digital

Jessica Denson (04:35):

Future. Is there something unique working with sovereign nations because they are in sovereign nations?

Drew Pappas (04:39):

I think my favorite, right? If you've worked with one tribe, you've worked with one tribe, I mean, they're, they're, and it's just like communities too. I mean, they're all gonna have their little differences or little idio idiosyncrasies that they need to work with or what their tribal members are requiring. Uh, I, why I personally, and I think why the company really enjoys it is you really see the benefits that it's bringing firsthand to the people mm-hmm <affirmative>. In the community. So I mean that, and that's why all these people are here. I mean, there's a bunch of talks about equipment and gear and all that kind of stuff, and the construction, but like, the main point of this is connecting people to high speed broadband

Jessica Denson (05:08):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So

Drew Pappas (05:09):

When we're getting to see that return and seeing what it's actually doing for folks and what it's bringing them from an economic development perspective, from a telehealth perspective, from the ability to not have to go somewhere else to get a job and they can still stay on the reservation and be a part of their community, it's, it's awesome.

Jessica Denson (05:24):

So talk a little bit about, you talked, you said this is almost, or was a hundred percent grant funded or mostly grant funded. Um, how critical is it to have, um, state or, and or federal funds to help reach those furthest places or disenfranchised populations or low income areas? How critical is that? As for businesses and stuff to have those funds?

Drew Pappas (05:50):

No, I mean, that's immensely critical. I mean, I think that's, you see, I mean we're, I like capitalism, you know, thumbs up, but the market has failed in those areas where mm-hmm. It is not economically feasible for them to go build out and make whatever return that they need to make on it. And so I do think just like we're seeing on the electricity side or the water side years and years and years ago, I mean, there's, there's responsibility from a government perspective to, to reach those people in this country that don't have access to this stuff. And so it, it's, there's not gonna be private providers that are coming in that, that are gonna deploy a bunch of capital in these markets that 'cause they're just not gonna get the payback that they're needing or wanting

Jessica Denson (06:24):

Mm-hmm

Drew Pappas (06:24):

<affirmative>. And so the, the, whether it's federal or state stepping in to kind of fill that gap is extremely important.

Jessica Denson (06:30):

So you said originally for the, specifically for the Southern Youth Tribe that you were looking at a, a wireless option. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Did you move to fiber or what are you guys to do?

Drew Pappas (06:39):

No, I mean, we're not, we're not fiber bigots in any sense, but we really, I mean, I, we, we know the future proof and what, what fiber can bring from a community and not having to change anything over the next three to five years and being able to have that asset for years and years to come. So we were, that's what we were wanting to do initially. And I think just the, the first look it was like, hey, may, maybe these 12 or 15 tower locations and trying to figure it out. But as we started kind of laying out the design on the fiber, it's like, well, hey, we're passing a bunch of these locations with fiber anyways to get them. So why are we not just taking fiber from a last mile perspective to them

Jessica Denson (07:07):

Uhhuh <affirmative>. So,

Drew Pappas (07:07):

And I think being able to get in the tribe itself, I mean the, the, the, the shareholders and the stakeholders that are involved for the tribe have been unbelievable and have been involved in, in every aspect of it and standing on the table to make sure this stuff moves forward. And so seeing that kind of commitment to getting this high speed connectivity to their members has been remarkable. So,

Jessica Denson (07:26):

Um, what kind of challenges? So not we can focus on Denver, but, or uh, Colorado, but just across the country when you're dealing with the different kind of topography and geography and, and weather and, and how do you, uh, address those kinds of things? 'cause I mean, in Colorado alone, you have, you have lowlands, you have mountains, you have a wide range of weather, even just on a day if you just go up <laugh>. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So how do you deal with that kind of thing?

Drew Pappas (07:53):

No, I think, right. I mean, and I think that's a lot. And, and we look, I mean, when we're going, whether it's building underground or area, you're looking at the underground environments and what's that rock look like and what's that cobble look like mm-hmm <affirmative>. 'cause that obviously drives up the cost per foot from any of the kind of construction. So I think being very diligent on the engineering side and when you're going out and then actively talking with the, the people that are, that have lived there and worked there to understand maybe what, you know, some of these sections of the area that might be a little tougher on the build

Jessica Denson (08:18):

Mm-hmm

Drew Pappas (08:18):

<affirmative>. And then just making sure we're kind of putting together the budget that's covering that stuff and around that. And, you know, we would like, obviously I think from a, uh, more of a opex perspective, wanting to have more stuff as underground as possible so we're not having to deal with the air. But, you know, when we hit a bunch of rock and stuff and some stuff has to go aerial, we have to adjust and make sure we're, we're being good stewards of the budget and making sure we're getting as much coverage as we possibly can still. So

Jessica Denson (08:41):

I talked to a representative with Mc NC earlier this, um, during the, the summit. And she was telling me during Hurricane Helene that even their underground stuff was flooded out. Yeah. And they lost everything. But that's a 100 year thing. It, it's, um, interesting. It's

Drew Pappas (08:57):

Not always the same, I mean, right.

Jessica Denson (08:58):

Yeah.

Drew Pappas (08:58):

No matter how much you wanna try to plan for it, there might be some stuff.

Jessica Denson (09:01):

Do the best you can. Yeah. And so does Bonfire mostly work with, you said you work with co-ops, those types, so you don't work residential though? You don't work individually?

Drew Pappas (09:09):

So yeah, so we like, from an open access perspective, we operate third party owned assets.

Jessica Denson (09:14):

Gotcha.

Drew Pappas (09:14):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So we're working with cities, counties that are really wanting to own their digital future or tribal entities where, uh, we can work with them. And so we're not, we're not bringing in from a private capital perspective, Uhhuh, this is an attractive market. We want to bring in $25 million. What we will do though, and working with those is work with them very much on what is the financing mechanisms that we could do through this. So whether this is revenue, bonds, go bonds, some type of financing through a municipality or a county or a tribal entity. And so we we're very creative in how we can kind of get money involved and bring that to the table.

Jessica Denson (09:44):

So you help them with the funding Absolutely. As well. Absolutely. As the actual infrastructure. Yes,

Drew Pappas (09:48):

Ma'am.

Jessica Denson (09:48):

Gotcha. Yep. Um, so are there a lot of partners here at the summit that you've seen? Yeah,

Drew Pappas (09:52):

They've been awesome. It's been great seeing existing partners, had some really good conversations with some new partners as well too. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So yeah, it's been a really fun week down here in Houston.

Jessica Denson (09:59):

And what about for you? Uh, I always like to ask at least at some point during the interview about the person I'm talking to. How did you get in work, begin working with Bonfire? What led you there?

Drew Pappas (10:09):

I was employee number, I, I think number seven or eight when we first first started. Oh, wow. So I've been with the company for just over eight years. Uh, and I started on a construction site, so I think I had my inter, I mean, we were much more Wild West back in the day, <laugh>. So I, I think I had my interview on a Friday. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I was on a plane to Springfield, Missouri on that following Monday and was digging trenches for some calf two builds we were doing out in southeast Missouri. Uh, and so, and in my, so in my old, I mean, I guess it's been in my blood a little bit. My grandma, my dad's mother was a phone operator for Mountain Bell back in

Jessica Denson (10:39):

The, the forties

Drew Pappas (10:39):

And fifties. And then my dad started working for the phone company when he was 19 years old outta high school. Uh, he worked 37 years at all the variations of CenturyLink, which I'll be polite. But that's, uh, <laugh>. And then he's now, for the last six plus years has been the director of, uh, for NextLight Fiber, which is the municipal Fiber Network in Longmont, Colorado,

Jessica Denson (10:59):

Uhhuh.

Drew Pappas (10:59):

So it's been, yeah, it's been

Jessica Denson (11:00):

Fun. That sounds like a family. My

Drew Pappas (11:02):

Brother-in-law works for, uh, max Cell, which is another kind of company over here, Uhhuh. So it's, yeah, it's become kind of a family

Jessica Denson (11:07):

Place. So the family conversations are very

Drew Pappas (11:09):

Telling us other siblings and my wife get very annoyed. It's just all

Jessica Denson (11:12):

Broadband. Yeah. So, well, I really appreciate your time. Is there anything you really want, uh, people to remember about Bonfire or if somebody's interested a, a group

Drew Pappas (11:21):

Yeah's

Jessica Denson (11:21):

Interested in working with you all much? They

Drew Pappas (11:23):

Do. No, absolutely. I think, you know, from everything we do kind of on the front end side from a broadband planning and the feasibility and market assessment and trying to figure out what's possible, putting together all the business models can do the design build kind of turnkey in that, and then having the ability to do the operation. So if there's any folks that are interested in trying to figure out a way where they want to own the infrastructure, but maybe they can't figure out what, what it looks like from a cost perspective or how it could even be possible, we'd love to sit down and chat with those folks. So

Jessica Denson (11:48):

I'll include a link to your website in the description of this podcast. I

Drew Pappas (11:50):

Appreciate that so

Jessica Denson (11:51):

Much. Thank you so much, drew. Yeah, thank I appreciate.

Drew Pappas (11:53):

Have a good day.

Jessica Denson (12:00):

We'll continue our coverage from the Broadband Community Summit on our next episode of Connected Nation. I'm Jessica Sen. Thanks for listening. If you wanna know more about us, head to connected nation.org or find our latest episodes on your favorite podcast platforms.