What a decade of digging into the Digital Divide and meeting those impacted by it has taught one researcher

On this episode of Connected Nation, we're joined by a  special guest who has spent nearly a decade researching the Digital Divide and meeting many of those who are directly impacted by it.

Find out what Dr. Christopher Ali is working on now AND the claim he says many broadband leaders need to stop making now or risk creating more harm. 

Recommended links:
Get "Farm Fresh Broadband: The Politics of Rural Connectivity"

Dr. Christopher Ali 

Penn State University

Chapters

• 1:26 Meet Dr. Christopher Ali
• 5:54 Will the Digital Divide be solved in 5 years?
• 8:35 AI has created a new Digital Divide
• 11:20 Rural America
• 12:52 Reframing the language

Transcript

Jessica Denson, Host (00:01):

This is Connected Nation, an award-winning podcast focused on all things broadband from closing the digital divide to improving your internet speeds. We talk technology topics that impact all of us, our families, and our neighborhoods.

(00:15):

On this episode of Connected Nation, I have a special guest who has spent nearly a decade researching the Digital Divide and meeting many of those who are directly impacted by it.

(00:27):

Find out what Dr. Christopher Ali is working on now, and the claim. He says, many broadband leaders need to stop making or risk creating more harm. I'm Jessica Denson, and this is Connected Nation.

(00:42):

I'm at Mountain Connect day two, and I just watched this interesting panel, um, but one of my favorite people was on it, and I had to ask him to return to our podcast for another interview. I believe this is our third official one on the, the podcast Dr. Christopher Ali. And in the background, there's applause, but go ahead and say hi, <laugh>.

Dr. Christopher Ali (01:01):

Hi. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.

Jessica Denson, Host (01:03):

It's so awesome to to have you around again and see your face. Yeah. Um, first time we met, we just were talking about, it was 2017 when you were doing research for your book, farm Fresh.

Dr. Christopher Ali (01:13):

Yes.

Jessica Denson, Host (01:13):

You'd come through Louisville, Kentucky and brought tuna.

Dr. Christopher Ali (01:16):

Yeah.

Jessica Denson, Host (01:16):

RIE. Um, I'm pouring out some, some water for him. I, I

Dr. Christopher Ali (01:20):

Love it. A little BA little bourbon.

Jessica Denson, Host (01:21):

Yeah, A little bourbon. Um, and since then you've done amazing things. How, how are things going just in general? Let us know.

Dr. Christopher Ali (01:27):

I mean, it, things are great, although I always feel that you need to separate how things are going personally with like, the dumpster fire that is our current world. Yeah. But, um, you know, so I've been at Penn State for three years. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I was recruited from the University of Virginia in 2022, and I'm, and I'm loving it there, the resources. They're lucky to have you. Oh, thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:44):

Uhhuh.

Dr. Christopher Ali (01:45):

Um, the resources to support the students, my colleagues, like, I think we're really building Penn State as the place to be, if you wanna seriously study broadband mm-hmm <affirmative>. And telecommunications as an undergrad, as a master's, as a PhD student, we are the place to be now. And it's really cool to be part of that. It

Jessica Denson, Host (02:01):

That is very cool. And you really were doing research in the broadband space before it became cool, quote unquote, to do that research because, um, now through after the pandemic with BEAT and everything, a lot of that we had started to see, started to see a lot more data on that.

Dr. Christopher Ali (02:18):

Yeah.

Jessica Denson, Host (02:18):

Even more so than just what the FCC was putting out, but you were really leading that charge. What, talk about why that was important to you.

Dr. Christopher Ali (02:25):

Well, I, I, part of it was that, um, no one was talking about it, or at least a very select few. And it certainly hadn't moved, I think, outside of academia into more of the public spotlight. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So you might recall in 2019, I, I wrote a piece for the New York Times mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, about rural broadband and why, particularly for farmers, why, why broadband was so important for farming, you know, then the pandemic happens and suddenly everyone realizes, oh, holy smokes. This is not a luxury <laugh>, this is a right, this is a necessity. This is a utility. Like mm-hmm. Um, and, and you're not, uh, you know, like, and what am I trying to say here? That everyone needed it, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, regardless, regardless of income, regardless of geographic location. Um, so now definitely we're having a moment, right. We're having a broadband moment, but I, and I've been reflecting on my time in this space, and I know that there's so many people who have been in this space so much longer than I have. So I'm not, you know, I'm not claiming some sort of like longevity, but it's been eight years mm-hmm <affirmative>. That I've been, its been a while. I've been fully engrossed in the broadband world mm-hmm <affirmative>. And as I'm finishing writing a new book on broadband, and the last section of the conclusion is actually called an Ode to Tuna. And it's about what I've learned in the last eight years and kind of comparing the research that I did for, for Farm Fresh Broadband with the research that I

Speaker 3 (03:40):

Did mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Dr. Christopher Ali (03:41):

And looking at what hasn't changed, but what what has, and the fact of the matter is, the stories that I'm hearing are no different than the stories that I heard in 2018

Speaker 3 (03:50):

Mm-hmm

Dr. Christopher Ali (03:50):

<affirmative>. Um, and, and that's really heartbreaking. And, you know, and I've, I've, I've opened up the scope of my work, so it's not just rural. I'm spending some time in an, in an indigenous community. I spend some time in inner city Pittsburgh, and, and I'm hearing the same stories, and that's really heartbreaking. Now there's a tremendous more money available mm-hmm <affirmative>. And there's more like public attention to this issue. But the fact of the matter is that it's 2025 and people still don't have access or affordability or the skill sets. I mean, there's so much more we need to do. And, you know, I'm hoping to play a small part in that.

Jessica Denson, Host (04:26):

Yeah. No, our audience can't see us, but, but I'm nodding my head. Agree. <laugh> agree with them. And just so everybody knows Tuna, which we mentioned briefly, was your dog that you brought around Yeah. Is a cute little, was he like a hound dog?

Dr. Christopher Ali (04:38):

He was a hound,

Jessica Denson, Host (04:39):

Yeah. He was

Dr. Christopher Ali (04:39):

A ho a hoey

Jessica Denson, Host (04:40):

Hound. He was very cute, very awesome. And he was definitely the ambassador of broadband <laugh>.

Dr. Christopher Ali (04:45):

Oh yeah. For sure. And, and like when we were doing, um, so we did what was called the, the Rural Broadband Road Trip Uhhuh in 2018, and that's when, I guess it was 2018 that we met. Yeah. And, um, when I would contact these communities out on our road trip and say that I was coming, I would also mention Tuna. And he was definitely the, the star of the show, <laugh>. And like I remember we were in a small town in Minnesota, and Tuna was on the front page of her news newspaper <laugh>. Um,

Jessica Denson, Host (05:10):

I love it.

Dr. Christopher Ali (05:11):

Yeah. Yeah. Tina deserved all of that, right? He absolutely, he absolutely did. He was a great traveling companion, a great research assistant. And so it's kind of nice in this new work to be reflecting on that road trip love that we did. And, and, and I say literally we, and like, what did we learn

Jessica Denson, Host (05:25):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Dr. Christopher Ali (05:25):

Eight years ago, um, that can be applied to today.

Jessica Denson, Host (05:29):

Yeah. I, I, I agree with you. I've been at Connected Nation for eight years. I had just started when we met and, um, just entering the broadband world as well. And I am, I agree with you that the same stories we're still hearing of people, of, of people in farming communities who are, that wanna stay, but they can't because they need a job or they need access or, you know, a lot of the same stories. And it's a shame, which brings me around and about to the point that, uh, that you made on the panel that said, we need to stop saying that the digital divide's gonna be over in five years. Yeah. 'cause it's not reality. No. And it really causes issues where people will be like, oh, okay, it's gonna be fixed just like that. But what do you mean about that? Do you mean that it's changing or that, that the target's moving? Or how do you, how do you, why did you say that and why do you define it?

Dr. Christopher Ali (06:15):

Well, I, I think when we say something like, and I, when I say we, I, I'm generally referring to either an elected official or a broadband officer, right? Someone of power in the law policy sphere who might stand up in front of a crowd and say, we're gonna solve the digital divide in five years, or the bead program's gonna solve the digital divide. Um, and what it does is it reduces the digital divide purely to a connectivity issue.

Speaker 3 (06:38):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Dr. Christopher Ali (06:38):

But we know, we know, we know, we know that it is so much more complex and so much more nuance. Right. Okay. I might have a fiber connection to my home, but I don't own a computer. I might have a fiber connection to my home, but it's $200 a month and I can't afford it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, I might have a fixed wireless connection to my home, but I don't speak English. I might have it to my home, but I don't know how to use a computer, or I only have how to use it for limited means, or I only have a phone. Like the digital divide intersects so much more with other facets of discrimination and marginalization in this world. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So it is not a technological, it's not a technological issue actually. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It's, it's, it's, it's an issue of power. Um, and so when I, when I hear someone say, we're gonna solve this issue, it's like saying, I we're gonna solve poverty in five years. Right. That would be amazing. But like, we need to set realistic goals, because what I worry about, particularly with state broadband offices, is a lot of them have sunsets.

Speaker 3 (07:34):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Dr. Christopher Ali (07:34):

A lot of them are gonna sunset in 2030 because they assume the job is done. In my mind, to be perfectly honest, the, the, the job only ramps up once everybody is connected. Uh,

Jessica Denson, Host (07:45):

But there's the next step, that's the next step.

Dr. Christopher Ali (07:47):

And like, we have to think about these things simultaneously. And I know someone on our panel said, no, first comes connected connection, then comes everything else. And I, I respectfully disagree with that. Um, we have to think about, you know, infrastructure, affordability, devices, support, education, um, simultaneously mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, in order to really address the kind of multifaceted nature of the digital divide. And that's kind of why I am, I guess, you know, dying on this hill of saying we need to stop saying Yeah.

Jessica Denson, Host (08:18):

Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Ali (08:18):

That we end the digital divide.

Jessica Denson, Host (08:19):

I'll tell you that in conversations with my CEO Tom free, who you also met. I know. Yeah. In that same, the same thing with tuna, um, is that, you know, what, how do we even define it anymore? Because now you have new technology. Absolutely. And so again, that moves away from people, widens the, the

Dr. Christopher Ali (08:35):

Gap. Ai, AI has created a new digital divide, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Between those who can harness it, those who know how to do the prompts and those who know how to use it for, for multifaceted parts of their life versus those like, like me who have no idea how to use it, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. That's a new digital divide, right? There's always gonna be a new digital divide because like, this is how works new technologies get rolled out to wealthier areas to folks who can afford it, usually to urban areas mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then it will distill that that in and of itself is a digital divide. So

Jessica Denson, Host (09:06):

Yeah. One thing that ruffled my feathers, <laugh>, when, when I was listening to the panel was the, uh, the gentleman who was, uh, oh, you know, you moved out to the rural area, so why do you deserve it? I wanted, I wanted to throw something <laugh>.

Dr. Christopher Ali (09:19):

Oh, my earrings were coming off

Jessica Denson, Host (09:20):

<laugh>. Oh, yeah. Just, just the whole, the whole time I've been at Connected been about like, bringing everybody along, leaving no one behind, no matter where they are. So, to hear that was just like, what, what was your reaction internally? I, I saw you kind of, I'm gonna keep it together here, but I disagree. You are using the BS side,

Dr. Christopher Ali (09:39):

<laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, I've heard this a lot Uhhuh,

Jessica Denson, Host (09:42):

Um,

Dr. Christopher Ali (09:42):

Throughout my, my career researching rural broadband. Um, and I've heard it as someone who have spent a lot of time in rural communities mm-hmm <affirmative>. Spending a lot of time listening to people, um, that, oh, if you want something better just move or it's your fault that you're, you don't have great connection, that you have to pay more because you've either chosen or your life circumstances has you finds yourself in a, in a rural area or remote area. Um, it is, uh, what's the right word? It's, it's, it's pejorative. It's patronizing. Yeah. Yeah. To say that like mm-hmm <affirmative>. Well, like, I'm gonna wag my finger at you and say, well, you deserve less than everybody else because you've made these choices or circumstances beyond your control have kept you in a rural area. You could say the same thing about indigenous peoples Right. About, about reservations and, and for this new book, I've spent some time there too. So it like, I mean, it boils my potatoes to no end <laugh>. Um,

Jessica Denson, Host (10:37):

Because boils my potatoes. Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Ali (10:38):

I

Jessica Denson, Host (10:38):

Love that. Okay. Because why,

Dr. Christopher Ali (10:39):

Why, why do you rural folks get subpar broadband just because they're in rural America?

Jessica Denson, Host (10:47):

Yeah. And I would also take that argument even further, whereas we have 42000000000.5, you know, $42.5 billion available that are gonna help make those business, those business models at least viable. Exactly. So don't quite understand how you can argue against that. If you wanna take part of that feed money,

Dr. Christopher Ali (11:07):

Right. Because like so much of this is, you know, we know that high speed, affordable broadband when adopted uhhuh in rural communities can be a game changer for economic development. Right. Can be a game changer for unemployment, can be a game changer for education. Telehealth, we don't have enough doctors and nurses in healthcare centers, in rural areas. Um, it gives young people more options. It allows urban folks to move into rural areas and contribute to the economy thereof. Um, so why wouldn't we wanna give them in fact, the best

Jessica Denson, Host (11:35):

Right.

Dr. Christopher Ali (11:35):

Broadband.

Jessica Denson, Host (11:36):

And isn't that part of like, even just the fabric of America, the Americana idea of rural, the rural us, those small town America, the, the, the farm, the farmers of America that have fed the world and, um, the idea of that, but even that there, that rural America represents millions and millions and millions of people.

Dr. Christopher Ali (11:58):

Absolutely. It does. Yeah. It also represents 92% of the geography of this country. Right. <laugh>, I mean, and, and yeah. And, and, and millions of people thereof who don't necessarily wanna move to a city don't wanna move at all. Right. Um, you know, in sociology they call this the rural penalty. Uh, the price you

Jessica Denson, Host (12:15):

Pay Uhhuh, <affirmative>

Dr. Christopher Ali (12:16):

The kind of literal or figurative price you pay for living in an, in an area. Um, but we need to stop thinking that just because you're in a rural area, you deserve something less.

Jessica Denson, Host (12:26):

Mm-hmm

Dr. Christopher Ali (12:26):

<affirmative>. Um, I agree Less, less than

Jessica Denson, Host (12:29):

I would, I could say Resoundly, everybody at Connected Nation would agree with that

Dr. Christopher Ali (12:32):

Statement. Yeah.

Jessica Denson, Host (12:33):

Yes. Because I mean, and, and we also want the same for urban areas that are low income or have yet to have

Dr. Christopher Ali (12:39):

Those. So, and this is going back to this kind of multifaceted nature mm-hmm. Of the digital divide. I want the same opportunities for newcomers, for indigenous peoples, for, um, folks who have been impacted by the justice system, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. We need to get over, and this is, you know, one of the things I didn't get to say on our panel is like, we really need to stop thinking about broadband as a commodity. It is not a commodity, it's a window to the world's a window to opportunity, right?

Speaker 3 (13:03):

Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Ali (13:03):

Um, and, but by continually thinking about it as a commodity, if I continue to thinking about people as customers and consumers, it allows us to make market-based decisions because calling someone a consumer, dehumanizes them.

Jessica Denson, Host (13:17):

Yes.

Dr. Christopher Ali (13:17):

Right. Calling 'em a person, calling them by their name, calling them Jess. Right. I wanna do something to help Jess, but I don't need to do something to help consumers. Right. Right. There's, there's, there's a different way that we can, that we, we should be reframing the language that we're using when we're talking about broadband because it is so much more than just a toaster.

Jessica Denson, Host (13:37):

Yeah. It really is. Well, I promised you that I would not keep you for too long, 'cause I know you have an appointment. I do another meeting and I've had you for 13 minutes. So tell us when your new book's coming out or when you're putting this. Okay. What's up next for you?

Dr. Christopher Ali (13:51):

We are, we, um, I am hoping that it would be out late 26, early 27. Okay. That's the goal. Um, it's almost done. I've just got one more chapter left to right. The book, the title is If These Maps Could Talk Tales From The Digital Divide. Oh, great. Great title. It's of Stories. Thank you. Uhhuh <affirmative>. Um, and it's about how stories and how people can influence public policy rather than just companies. Um, and what's next? Um, I'm working on a project right now actually involving first responders. So thanks to a grant from the Center for Rural Pennsylvania and spending time and doing focus groups in 10 rural Pennsylvania counties, talking to first responders, uh, law enforcement firefighters, and uh, uh, EMS officers to look at how the lack of broadband infrastructure is impacting their work,

Jessica Denson, Host (14:36):

Because Oh, I bet that's gonna be interesting.

Dr. Christopher Ali (14:37):

It's been fascinating and I find that public safety is something we often don't talk about when it comes to connectivity. Talk about education and telehealth and, and, and workforce development, but not public safety. So this is kind of an opportunity to bring

Jessica Denson, Host (14:48):

New, are you looking at some of what First Net's doing with all that too?

Dr. Christopher Ali (14:51):

Looking at FirstNet, looking at, um, the move to Next Gen 9 1 1.

Jessica Denson, Host (14:55):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Dr. Christopher Ali (14:55):

Um, but all from the side of first responders. So, uh, listening again, spending time there, listening in focus groups mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and then once that project's done, I have promised myself and my husband, I am taking a year off major projects. Yeah. I, you know, 'cause when the book is even to the publisher, there's a lot of copy getting that has to do, then there's promotion of the book. So I, I kind of just wanna, I wanna focus on my students. I want to take a breath. I want focus on getting that book out. Oh. And then we'll see, we'll see what the next big research project is.

Jessica Denson, Host (15:25):

Well, when you're, when the research comes out and the book comes out, you, you give me a call and let's talk about what you're doing. We'll do, and um, your new doggie is Loki.

Dr. Christopher Ali (15:33):

Loki. Yep.

Jessica Denson, Host (15:34):

And you're a new hubby, Ben. Now you guys are still kind of newlyweds, right? Four years. 4 0, 4, 4 years time has

Dr. Christopher Ali (15:40):

Flown off. Yeah. Yeah. Been together for seven years. Four years. Married.

Jessica Denson, Host (15:43):

Well, you and Ben are cute. Thank you. So, uh, congratulations to both of you, congrat, and, um, have a good meeting. Thank you so much. I mean, I don't know who you're gonna talk to you. That's more important than me, but that's all right. I

Dr. Christopher Ali (15:52):

Know no one here.

Jessica Denson, Host (15:52):

Yeah. <laugh>, I'm just kidding. Wonderful to have you Dr. Christopher Ly so much who's with Penn State and does great stuff. Pick up his book, farm Fresh.

Dr. Christopher Ali (16:00):

Thank you so much.

Jessica Denson, Host (16:00):

Mm-hmm. And that concludes our coverage from Mountain Connect 2025 in Denver, Colorado. Until next time, I'm Jessica Denson and this is Connected Nation. If you'd like to know more about our organization, head to connected nation.org or find all our latest episodes on your favorite podcast platform.