Mountain Connect 2024: The high-tech (and dangerous) broadband job that some say needs regulation now

On this episode of Connected Nation, we continue our coverage from Mountain Connect, which is taking place in Denver, Colorado.

We talk with a leader at the Fiber Optics Network about the need for regulations surrounding a critical broadband job, AND we talk with the leader of a new telecom school that's approaching training in a new way.

Related Links:
Mountain Connect
The FO (Fiber Optics) Network
Telecom Tech School

Mountain Connect 2024 series
Opening episode
The Internet Equity Initiative and connecting the most remote, inhabited island in Michigan
The high-tech (and dangerous) broadband job that some say needs regulation now
Nokia's Network in a Box and the one thing most people get wrong about the company
Key partnerships, digital equity, and the Illinois Broadband Lab
BEAM's leadership on broadband expansion and accessibility across Mississippi
How BroadbandOhio is navigating BEAD

Chapters

• 1:52 Carol Hall, The Fiber Optic Network intro and what FO Network does
• 6:04 What is the splicing industry?
• 11:55 Why the splicing industry might be dangerous
• 17:27 Setting a new standard for Colorado
• 21:20 Nathan Larson, Executive Director, The Telecom Tech School into and the Titan Foundation
• 25:42 What an apprenticeship
• 31:05 Why this is a new kind of an old idea

Transcript

Jessica Denson (00:04):
On this episode of Connected Nation, we continue our coverage from Mountain Connect, which is taking place in Denver, Colorado. On this episode, I talk with a leader at the Fiber Optics Network about a issue regarding regulations and standards around a critical job when it comes to laying broadband. Plus, I talk with the leader of a new telecom school that's approaching training in a first of its kind way. I'm Jessica Denson, and this is Connected Nation. So I'm standing at my booth and Steve Valdez, who we talked to earlier today came over. He really wanted me to meet someone. Who was that? Steve?

Steve Valdez, Business Development for Telecom a KLJ (00:44):
It's Carol Hall from a FR in Denver, Colorado.

Jessica Denson (00:48):
And you guys were giggling, you're obviously good friends. So tell me a little bit about Carol before I interview her.

Steve Valdez (00:56):
I met Carol and Dick Hall about 25 years ago, and they have been providing fiber optic services for the different companies that I've worked for and for other companies throughout Colorado. Back in the days when I was the senior manager for XO Communications, we relied solely on a FR to do all of our splicing work, and that's where I've come to know and appreciate their work.

Jessica Denson (01:25):
And you said they were some of the best splicers in Colorado, right?

Steve Valdez (01:28):
Yes, they are. They've basically set the standards for splicing and that type of work in the Colorado market.

Jessica Denson (01:37):
Alright, Steve, stop hogging the spotlight. I'm going to talk to Carol now.

Carol Hall, The Fiber Optics Network (01:41):
Thank you, Steve.

Jessica Denson (01:42):
So Carol, you came over because you really wanted to talk about the fiber optic network. So let's start there and then we'll go back a little bit to your company. Okay?

Carol Hall, The Fiber Optics Network (01:52):
Okay. Okay. The Fiber Optic Network is a nonprofit organization. We're trying to connect fiber optic professionals together because there's no conduit for fiber splicing technicians to communicate with each other, to share problems and problem resolutions, to share news and information among one another. But the biggest problem facing the fiber optic industry is going to be the lack of professionals coming in the next already we're behind, but we're going to really lose a lot of solid professionals in the next five years when they retire and there's no one to replace them.

Jessica Denson (02:37):
So there's something to be said for having that history of understanding where things started.

Carol Hall (02:43):
Absolutely.

Jessica Denson (02:44):
When it comes to troubleshooting you think and stuff. Oh,

Carol Hall (02:46):
Absolutely.

Jessica Denson (02:47):
Talk a little bit about that

Carol Hall (02:49):
Well, we, at advanced fiber response, we considered technicians to be green for three years because every situation in outside plant or inside plant is different, inherently different because of the different kinds of glass, the different closures and splice trays and panels. And so it really takes a while to build up that knowledge base that you can go out and work in any kind of situation. And most of the time the work is very high pressure because we're working on the nation's communications lines. We can't take 'em down in the daytime. So we have to work at night, usually starting after 10:00 PM and we've got to be done by six in the morning so that everyone can get onto their phones and conduct business the next day.

Jessica Denson (03:43):
That's kind of a unique pressure. And then working in the dark, how do you cope with that?

Carol Hall (03:50):
Yeah, it takes a certain breed of person to be able to handle that kind of stress and pressure. And if it doesn't go well, it doesn't matter. If it's not going well, you've got to make it go well and you've got to get the network back up by six o'clock in the morning.

Jessica Denson (04:07):
So the organization itself, you said it's called the Fiber Optic Network, but it's also called referred to as the FO network? Yes. And what are you looking to do as an organization?

Carol Hall (04:19):
Well, we have three main focuses of our mission is to promote the industry and fiber optic splicing and testing as an occupation and as a professional occupation.

Jessica Denson (04:35):
So people are aware of what there is?

Carol Hall (04:36):
A lot of kids coming out of school don't know that this profession exists, and it's not a technical position. It's not something that you can go in out of high school. A lot of insurance companies will not insure an 18-year-old to splice. So it's difficult to get liability insurance or workers' comp insurance for someone who's under the age of 21. So

Jessica Denson (05:06):
You really need a mentor then.

Carol Hall (05:08):
You do. We need apprenticeships and we need to get them started now rather than later.

Jessica Denson (05:13):
And these jobs are jobs that can last. They have a future, right? Absolutely. They're not going to be here and gone. No. They're going to need to keep these up. Right?

Carol Hall (05:20):
Yeah. There's so many avenues to pursue in fiber optics engineering and equip the equipment side of it and the manufacturing side of it. And the splicing side of it is a huge, it's what everything rides on.

Jessica Denson (05:42):
I want to get to the other two pillars of your mission. I haven't forgotten about that. We'll come back to that. But explain to the novice, when you say splicing, you're basically essentially talking about cutting and then putting back together. I know it sounds silly, but it must highly technical when you're dealing with those wires, all kinds of things, you could splice and take down a network, right? Oh,

Carol Hall (06:04):
Absolutely. So we're a very niche industry. The splicing industry is very niche. The equipment that we use costs probably 15,000. When we first started, a splicer cost $40,000 and an OTDR an optical time domain, reflectometer costs $40,000. Oh, wow. And so this very niche industry, we don't lay the cable, we don't trench it or bore it, someone else does that. And the telecommunications providers and some municipalities hire splicers to come in after all that construction work is done. And then the fiber is glass the size of a human hair. Wow. And the splicers are very delicate pieces of equipment, and they have a shelf life or an operating life of about four years after that. The manufacturers won't service them anymore. You've got to buy new. Oh, wow. We do this little niche thing. It's at the end of a project and we'll, the old days we would have 144 fibers or 288. Now that is blown up exponentially. We can have so many fibers, thousands of fibers in the ground. 

Carol Hall (07:23):
Wow. So we usually work out of splicing labs in the street. We get the closures out of the ground and we splice 'em together and then put 'em back into an enclosure and then drop that into a manhole or hand hole and cover it up. So that's part of the problem. The work that we do is not seen. So people aren't aware of it. Right? That's right. They don't know. But it's critical. It's critical. Without a good spl, the networks don't work. And there's no inspections of our work because there aren't any inspectors, which is another area of growth.

Jessica Denson (08:00):
Is that one of your three pillars?

Carol Hall (08:02):
It's not one of our three pillars. It's just another need. It's another avenue to grow into.

Jessica Denson (08:12):
So what are your two other pillars of your mission?

Carol Hall (08:14):
Well, education is a big one. So back in the day when my husband and Steve started, they got their start at a telecom company and they learned from the ground up. They learned how the network architecture performs. They learned all of the duties and responsibilities of their position, but they were also trained in safety, aerial safety, confined space, safety. There's so many areas of

Jessica Denson (08:44):
Confined space safety that gives me chills, claustrophobic.

Carol Hall (08:48):
Yes. And a lot of our work takes place underground, and if you're not trained in how to access those vaults or manholes, you could die. Yeah,

Jessica Denson (08:57):
I can imagine.

Carol Hall (08:58):
It's really important. So what's been happening lately in the industry is that people can buy used equipment on the internet on eBay, buy a used splicer that's maybe 10 years old, it

Jessica Denson (09:12):
Sounds dangerous

Carol Hall (09:13):
For $400, and then watch a YouTube video on how to push the button to make the splicer work. And so they are increasingly taking work from professionals, and it's kind of like the wild west. You don't know who your splicer is, you don't know what kind of credentials they have or where they receive their training. So we are partnering with the telecom tech school. They offer an eight week comprehensive program where a person could go and get training in safety and in splicing and in testing and come out and go to an apprenticeship with a professional organization where they would apprentice for one to two years to really learn the trade.

Jessica Denson (10:02):
So that's really what the network is. It's advocating for creating some standards around this. They aren't really there at the moment.

Carol Hall (10:09):
There are no standards. There are none. That

Jessica Denson (10:12):
Seems, I'm flabbergasted by that. I

Carol Hall (10:14):
Know most people would expect that there would be standards in this industry, but there are none. And when a job goes out, forbid they'll put standards of what the testing should be. But oftentimes the testing is not done properly, not by a trained professional. And sometimes the docs just don't go anywhere within an organization. So nobody knows and nobody will go and pop those holes and open those closures to see what's inside.

Jessica Denson (10:51):
You're telling me there's no standards that are required at the moment. What could that lead to? Am I afraid? I'm kind of afraid to ask?

Carol Hall (11:02):
Yes. It could be catastrophic. The splices could hold for now, but if they're not properly stored within the tray or the closure, they could be subject to water and ice, heat breaking and networks could go down. We're talking about our 9 1 1 systems. We're talking about the nation's. All of the nation's secure data is writing on this stuff and nobody is looking at it.

Jessica Denson (11:32):
Do you think that part of that is just the lack of awareness and lack of knowledge? And so that's why one of the reasons you want to educate and let people know, hello, we need some standards

Carol Hall (11:43):
Here. Yes. Hello. We need some standards.

Jessica Denson (11:46):
You could use that. That could be your

Carol Hall (11:48):
Tagline. Can I? Okay.

Jessica Denson (11:48):
Good. Hello. Knock lock you on your door. We need some standards. Yes. Okay. So what's the third pillar?

Carol Hall (11:55):
Well, licensing and regulation, because it takes a person two to three years in the field to become proficient and to be able to understand all of the different situations that they could run into. We need to have some kind of licensing like an electrician would have. We need to have standards, we need to have licensing, and that would serve the community in so many ways. The splicing on a typical project is about 1% of the total spend for the splicing, and yet they're awarded to the low bidders. And the low bidders go and hire Joe

Jessica Denson (12:38):
Blow. He may not be qualified

Carol Hall (12:40):
At all. That's right. No, and that's what we need to do. We need to create a registry of vetted professionals who can prove that they have the credentials and the knowledge to operate on our nation's backbone.

Jessica Denson (12:54):
Do you really have some urgency right now with so much funding out there? I mean, I've talked to people before on the podcast about there are bad actors who come out with the woodwork and there's money and not necessarily people with a broadband resume.

Carol Hall (13:10):
That's right.

Jessica Denson (13:12):
Is there a concern that this could be happening exponentially because of all of

Carol Hall (13:16):
That? Oh, absolutely. The more money there is, the more people will try to take advantage and just to get the work. The other part of it is, is that there are companies many in Colorado who are vetted, credentialed, splicers. And when someone comes in from out of town who is not credentialed, who doesn't pay insurance, who doesn't pay taxes, whose trucks aren't registered in the state of Colorado or whatever state they're working in, and they're taking jobs from Colorado citizens and from Colorado companies.

Jessica Denson (13:55):
And that's probably replicated state to state to state, right?

Carol Hall (13:58):
Absolutely, yes. And the other thing is, is that some companies will just hire, there was one company that hired 18 year olds. As I've said, they

Jessica Denson (14:09):
Can't

Carol Hall (14:09):
Be insured. They can't be insured. So they got around that by hiring them as independent contractors. And as a 10 99 contractor, how many 18 year olds would know that they needed to procure liability insurance or workers' comp? They don't. And they probably weren't told. But that way that contractor who hired them could cut costs because they weren't on his payroll.

Jessica Denson (14:34):
And meanwhile they're put at risk

Carol Hall (14:36):
And the public. Yeah.

Jessica Denson (14:39):
Is there anybody else talking

Carol Hall (14:40):
About this in this space right

Jessica Denson (14:41):
Now? No. No, no.

Carol Hall (14:45):
It's just me. Well, now me and now you

Jessica Denson (14:48):
Just two of us. I love the

Carol Hall (14:49):
People. Yes.

Jessica Denson (14:50):
Thank you. The Fiber optic network. You guys have a website or something that I could share?

Carol Hall (14:55):
We do. It's the fo network.org. And in June, I submitted an application to Colorado's department of regulatory agencies petitioning for licensing of fiber optic technicians. And it's going to take about six months for it to go through their process. But I'm hoping that the state of Colorado will recognize this urgent need. Cybersecurity should be at the top of everyone's mind. And when you have people who you don't know what their background is or what their intentions are and you're making them aware of and giving them access to the nation's communications backbone, everyone should be concerned.

Jessica Denson (15:41):
Yes. And so Colorado is doing this. Are there other states that have any licensure or it's not that you're aware of across the us?

Carol Hall (15:51):
So I did a little bit of investigation, and I have found out that the state of Nevada has buried a fiber optic license within their electrical license. Let me be clear that electrical and fiber optic

Jessica Denson (16:08):
Are separate,

Carol Hall (16:08):
Have as much in common as plumbing does to fiber. They're both infrastructure, but they're very different animals.

So Jessica Denson (16:18):
Really, Colorado could lead on this issue.

Carol Hall (16:20):
Oh, they absolutely could. At the network, we want to write the test because we're field experienced people. And rather than having a test that's generated by somebody who may not be experienced in all of the different scenarios, scenarios and the different closures, you could go and get training from a cable manufacturer on how to splice their cable. You could go to a manufacturer of closures and trays and be trained how to do theirs, but there are many different manufacturers of closures and trays and the glass that's in the ground. You may be working on 10-year-old glass and trying to fuse it to new glass. And there's a very, you've got to be careful about all of those little bitty things that can affect, that comes with experience, really, that comes with experience.

Jessica Denson (17:19):
So do you hope if Colorado State, a perfect world, Colorado, moves forward with this effort, do you hope to see this across the country?

Carol Hall (17:27):
Yes. That's our goal is to get it in every state in the union. We need to set the standards now. I mean, we should have done this 10 years ago, but it's not too late. We can set the standards and make sure that everyone is trained to the same standard and the same methodology, rather than having all of these people doing it different ways everywhere. You should be able to pop a hole or look at a closure in Denver, and it should look the same way in San Francisco or New York

Jessica Denson (18:00):
So that it's uniform. Yes. I like how you pop a hole. I mean, pop a manhole. Yes. I'm going to use that jargon. Hey, I got to pop a hole up. So just real quick before I let you go, let's talk about your company that you just sold, advanced fiber response that Steve bragged on a moment ago. Thank you, Steve. He's always hogging. He's always talking more just, I'm just kidding. He hasn't done that. But talk a little bit about your company and who you sold it to recently.

Carol Hall (18:27):
Well, my husband started in telecom way back. His dad was a phone man. He was a phone man. And he got into fiber early on. He was the overall, they had an SCTE, the Society of Cable Television Engineers. They had a cable games back in the nineties, and my husband took four medals. Wow, that's great. In splicing. And we started the company in 1998. WorldCom and MCI were our first customers. My husband built the rings in Denver. Oh wow. Back in 1990s. You can tell

Jessica Denson (19:03):
How proud you are if people can see your face. You're just beaming. Yeah. Oh, I'm

Carol Hall (19:07):
Very proud of my husband. He's like a genius in fiber. And so we had the business for 26 or 27 years and some other splicers, whom we've known for about a dozen years made us an offer. And we were just really happy to accept J

essica Denson (19:24):
Instead of going off quietly into the night, you're taking on this other issue.

Carol Hall (19:29):
And I'm so proud to be able to do it. And I'm working with a lot of great people with a lot of industry experience behind them. Steve is with us, and he brings 30 or 40 years of telecom engineering to bear. We have a representative in the insurance industry. We have a member of the telecom tech school with us, and we're hoping to get more board members and more membership altogether. We really need to make a place where fiber optic technicians can come together and communicate with each other.

Jessica Denson (20:03):
I bet. Because it can probably be an isolating field if a lot of people don't even know about it.

Carol Hall (20:07):
Well, that's funny you say that. It was when we first started in the business, everybody held their cards close to their vest because there was only five customers, three or four. And you didn't want to let your competitor get your customer. And so for a long, long time, we didn't talk to one another. We were afraid to let something slip, but now there's more glass in the ground and we need to be a brotherhood. We need to come together and just be together and promote this industry.

Jessica Denson (20:40):
Well, car Hall, thank you so much. And the organization's called the Fiber Optic Network or the fo.org, and I will share that link in the description of our podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you. I appreciate your time today. Yeah, yours as well. I really appreciate you. Oh, thank you so much. So I just spoke with Carol Hall who is with the Fiber Optus Network, and she sung the praises of our next guest, Nathan Larson, who is the executive director of Telecom Tech School. Correct. Get that. All right. You got your cards. You made it easy on me.

Nathan Larson (21:12):
Right.

Jessica Denson (21:13):
So she also talked about the Titan Foundation. How is the school and the Titan Foundation connected? Well, the

Nathan Larson, Executive Director, The Telecom Tech School (21:20):
Titan Foundation is the nonprofit foundation and the board, and then the DBA is the telecom tech school. So we're operating as a nonprofit telecom tech school, which includes, we're unique and kind of really different. There's nothing out there like this. We're doing an eight week in class on the job hands-on classroom training in our lab. And then the final 10 months is a paid apprenticeship with a fiber type installation, whatever company where you'll get aerial underground splicing testing. And that's a 10 month program, but it's paid and it's 22 to $25 an hour a paid apprenticeship. So it's earn while you learn type of thing. And so, like I said, it's really unique, one of a kind. There's a lot of stuff out there. You can go take a three day class for a thousand bucks or take an online class for 800 bucks. There's a bunch of that out there. But we wanted to set it up as a true learning, true school. And we have approval through the Colorado State Apprenticeship Agency and the Colorado Department of Labor, all the county workforces, the future of work, all those groups are backing us. So that's made it really interesting and very unique in a training where it is this full on training program set up for kids right out of the gate, maybe you came out of your high school VO-tech program and wanted to get into the trades. That's what it's perfectly meant for.

Jessica Denson (23:02):
Carol was talking about how important apprenticeship is. Talk a little bit about that side of it. Why is that so critical?

Nathan Larson, Executive Director, The Telecom Tech School (23:08):
Yeah, the biggest part on that apprenticeship is they're going to get 2000 hours, basically 10 months. And there's no hurry If they finish it in two years, one year, it doesn't matter with the state anyway. But that apprenticeship, it's going to give 'em X amount of hours and underground out in the field actually installing, doing whatever, plus doing the same thing with aerial splicing, testing OSHA standards. So by the time you're done and you've worked with this company now for 10 months, that is paying for your apprenticeship. Yeah. 99% of the time, guess what? They're going to hire you. So they know who you are. They've had them for 10 months, they went through. But another part of it too is having that eight weeks training and then coming to you, even with eight weeks, if you're one of our partners that do apprenticeships with us and we help the company track it, we help 'em with the state, we help 'em with all that whole tracking mechanism for the companies. But I mean, once we hand you someone that's got eight weeks of awesome training, they already kind of know what they're getting. But now they get this student for another 10 weeks, or I mean 10 months

Jessica Denson (24:32):
Like I to vet 'em and test them. And for them to also learn from people who've been in the field. Right,

Nathan Larson (24:38):
Exactly. And they get paid. Yeah.

Jessica Denson (24:41):
And you get paid. It's almost like a win-win win. Nathan Larson (24:44):

Very few schools do. You go to where, hey, we'll pay you 22 to 25 bucks an hour while you're in training. Yeah, it doesn't happen. Well, I

Jessica Denson (24:52):
Wish I would've had that when I was school for journalism. I ended up having to pay forever. So that's wonderful.

Nathan Larson (24:59):
And it's a great option for those kids, especially who they don't want to do the four year college track, the two year whatever, don't want to pay 50, 60, 80,000 and be in debt this way. They're making money. They can pay a lot of 'em get workforce benefits or whatever can pay for some of their tuition. So yeah, it's really a win-win. These students can come out in the end and really never owe a dime.

Jessica Denson (25:25):
That's amazing. So is there a cost for them to be a part of the eight week portion

Nathan Larson (25:30):
For a cost? Well, it's $8,000 for the whole program. For the whole

Jessica Denson (25:35):
12 months. The whole 12 months. So how does it work? How does the student get involved in it? What do they need to do?

Nathan Larson (25:42):
Yeah, students just need, they can come in and visit our campus. We have an Aurora campus right off Alameda and Buckley, right by Buckley. Air Force Base could come into the campus, they can visit our website. They can go online. They can go any, we have barcodes on everything anymore, the scanner codes. But yeah, I just go into the telecom tech school.com. Dot org, either one. And they can fill out any forms, any information, and just let us know. Hey. And we do specialized training too. So if you're a company out there that you only want a three day testing class or whatever, we'll set up an individual specialized training for your company, specialized tuition rate, whatever you want. It's not a cookie cutter thing where you have to take this now the 12 apprenticeship program is That is, yeah. But if you are a company and want specialized training, you want a five day whatever training. Yeah, we'll put that together. So we do both. So yeah, you can do any of that on the website. Just go to the website, let us know.

Jessica Denson (26:48):
I'll include a link to that. One said inscription of the podcast. So I hear a lot. I go to a lot of the conferences and I talked about in the field, talking to broadband people in broadband or working to expand the infrastructure. There is a real need for this workforce. There's a workforce gap. And also the loss of people who've known, not that they've passed away, but that they've retired out of

Nathan Larson (27:12):
The Yeah. Moved on. Moved on. Jessica Denson (27:13):

And don't have this background. How critical are programs like this right now?

Nathan Larson (27:17):
Oh yeah. It's huge. Because I talked to a gentleman yesterday, they're looking for 50

Jessica Denson (27:23):
And there's just That's

Nathan Larson (27:24):
A lot.

Jessica Denson (27:25):
That's a lot.

Nathan Larson (27:25):
Yeah. So there is huge demands since broadband, internet, fiber, everything. That's what it's all about anymore. Cable, coaxial, copper.

Jessica Denson (27:38):
So right now you work in Colorado. Are you guys looking to go anywhere else?

Nathan Larson (27:41):
Possibly. I mean, we'll probably look at maybe doing some online classes, maybe some virtual reality smart classroom. So if someone's sitting in Oklahoma, if they can find an apprenticeship out there on their own, then maybe we can do some training with them, training online. Get the 144 hours of classroom. Maybe it's partial online. Maybe partial that they come here to Colorado and take some of the classes. And then maybe we go out and help 'em in Oklahoma and teach a few.

Jessica Denson (28:17):
You're willing to talk about it, help. Yeah. So what's your background, Nathan?

Nathan Larson (28:22):
Mine is, I have been in the private for-profit, higher ed world for 35 years. Mainly always working with private for-profit. But in the very beginning, when I started back in 1989, the schools had short term get to work training more like a vo-tech, get you in out, make a decent money, make decent wage, short term, six to nine month programs. Then over my 35 years, they had to have bachelor's and master's and doctorates and online and yeah, it just got crazy. And then all the issues that happened with the private for profits, 2000 10, 11, 12, a lot of 'em gone now. So to me, when these two gentlemen found me and told me this great opportunity and what they were trying to do, I just jumped at it. I thought the part I loved was the vo-tech, short term nonprofit. Yeah, that's really

Jessica Denson (29:29):
All of that. You're like looking

Nathan Larson (29:30):

For, this is a

Jessica Denson (29:31):
Working, this will work with the apprenticeship and everything and this learning How long? No. How long will somebody have a career in this type of industry? Do you think it's forever. It's a forever

Nathan Larson (29:45):
Job. Yeah, you can, I mean, a lot of the people, one of our students right now is already working in underground, has a good paying job as an underground installer. But he would like to be maybe an operations manager, maybe a field manager, maybe whatever production manager. He wants bigger and better things and he knows if he learns all the aspects of this piece, installing, testing, splicing, underground, aerial, learns it all, that he can become a valuable member in his company. And if not, he can always move up somewhere else.

Jessica Denson (30:23):
So it's a good foundational thing for a long-term career. When you say aerial, do you mean the cell towers? Is that what you're talking

Nathan Larson (30:30):
About? Cell towers and telephone poles? Both. Okay.

Jessica Denson (30:32):
Yeah, both.

Nathan Larson (30:33):
So they got to learn both. Yep.

Jessica Denson (30:35):
And Carol was talking about also that there are certain things you need to know when you go underground

Nathan Larson (30:40):
Too.

Jessica Denson (30:40):
Correct.

Just even what's safe and what's not safe. Nathan Larson (30:44):
And you have to just digging or anywhere, you got to know what, so you have to get those permits, you have to get those tests, you have to get those guys coming out and marking things. You can't just start drilling, obviously. Yeah.

Jessica Denson (30:59):
Alright. Well, is there anything that you would want people to take away from this conversation? Our audience about?

Nathan Larson (31:05):
Well, just the biggest thing is just that we are a new kind of an old idea. The idea started quite a few years ago, but fairly new. We just got rolling last few months. But it is a nonprofit. It is very unique where it's learn earn while you learn paid on the job training decent money that you can't beat for 10 months. And like I said, 99% of the time that company you're doing your apprenticeship with knows you, likes, you probably is going to hire you. But yeah, I mean, just a wonderful idea, wonderful way to get kids trained in this specialization. And like I said, it's kind of a unique, one of a kind deal that we're doing right now. No one has this.

Jessica Denson (31:51):
Well, I'm excited to see where it takes you and what happens with it. So I'd love to get an update a year from now. There you go.

Nathan Larson (31:57):
Yeah.

Jessica Denson (31:58):
Alright. Thank you Nathan.

Nathan Larson (31:59):
Thank you so much. J

Jessica Denson (32:06):

Our next episode of Connected Nation, I will continue our coverage from the Mountain Connect conference taking place in Denver, Colorado. Until then, I'm Jessica Denson and this is Connected Nation.